You have a nice weekend. It also renders the rest of your revisionist speculation moot. You have no idea about my spiritual upbringing or how much I've investigated the scriptures and the deities therein. Unless of course Jakes, and had a divine insight into my personal life while you were in the ethers riding in a lear jet with a beautifully arranged floral set that adhered to your rider's specifications. Enjoy your weekend. Come on let's go and plaaaaaay Lets tackle the strawmen above.
First of all, it's a church, it's kind of expected. If those fees are a direct contribution to it then fine, if not Should we treat someone who's doing the work of God as a Ceo: Just because he does a 'better' job then another preacher should we pay him more X more? Is it actually possible to do a job x times better? However the concept of tithing is to give to the Lord to help the Church itself as an organization; not keep its leader paid There's lots of problem here and imho it's almost nothing to do with Christianity then about how much we've allowed the idea of capitalism infect our lives.
I have no problem people working hard and etching otu a comfortable living out of it, even clergymen and women. However if we've reached the point where we can shrug off such extravagance of k plus preaching fees we're fucking up.
Let my man Pope Frankie tell it: Inequality is the root of social evil. Oh right - they didn't. Let me sport my Air Hyperbole s in peace. It's actually ridiculous when you think about it. That really depends. If said preacher has thousands of people waiting for him in different cities throughout the year, expectations are higher so efficiency needs to be higher.
Does he NEED it? Of course not. I'm sure you could reduce his appearances and put him on a bus across country if that makes people feel better. As if a church cannot do good work if the leader is compensated well. All the measuring is being done against the possessions of the pastor without taking inventory of the work that the church is doing. So I have to question, do the critics really care? If we can have a discussion inclusive of the proven beyond assumption LACK of work the church is doing, then it will hold some true weight and I would strongly agree.
Otherwise, the discussion remains shallow. Like I said if there are facts showing that nothing is being achieved by the ministry, I will happily agree with the critics and concede the points. Christianity in the modern sense is used as a means to financial extravagance in some instances - such as this - and it's justified largely by economic considerations as opposed to christian principles.
This is really the realm of Pop-Christianity. New Christianity prolly wouldn't even let Yeshua step foot in the church because of the dress code. TD Jakes is here today! We can't have you dressed like that. Have a good day. But hey, if it secures a place on a beach you've never seen, then be my guest. Do you know TD Jakes?
Do you know anything substantive about his ministry or the church that he pastors? Do you know about his service to the kingdom? Man, you are all up in here championing some article and you don't know anything that would give you the right to do anything other than sit down and mind your own business.
Remember when the vatican offered payment to get out of purgatory? But yeah And here's a good link to help you educate yourself.
You don't get to come into a post and shoot off tangents and then act like you people are dodging you but not following your tangents. You are the one who is dodging by not addressing the damn point of the post. Stop acting like a jerk. But that's precisely the point. Do Christians really view their leaders as celebrities who should exploit the marketplace in order to maximize profits and live outwardly flashy, gaudy lifestyles? Particularly when such debilitating poverty exists directly in front of them?
If so - how is that reconcilable with the message of Christ? Next time they thank God for something I hope to see a post by these same people complaining about ticket prices.
As Kevin said, I haven't found these "facts" about jakes anywhere but on that site and gossip outlets. The accusations may very well be true, but I think that if we are to have a real conversation about this, we ought to at least know that we are talking about something legitimate. What's wrong with a regular nice suite and a first-class commercial flight?
Should there be a difference in the expectations that non-christians have of christians? Christians are supposed to check each other and leave the non-Christians to do what they wish. However if the book largely characterizes Christians as a monolithic group, then shouldn't they all be subject to the same scrutiny? There are far better things to criticize christian leaders of than money. The KJV bible does not call money an evil thing to stay away from.
It's more like have money, be responsible, let others borrow. Pay your taxes Mark , Romans , pay your bills Romans , lend but do not borrow , and there being no poor among his people Deut Jesus was not walking around destitute. Judas carried the money bag and the bible clearly states that Judas was corrupted by his love of money supporting 1 Tim When Jesus was anointed with the expensive oil, he did not tell the woman to take it back and anoint him with something less costly.
He told everyone else to shut up about it. John and Luke Having money does not equal loving money. Deuteronomy is pretty clear in that respect. It's also clear in how pre-Christians are supposed to tithe Deut. Deut NLV says: "Yet there will be no poor among you for the Lord will be sure to bring good to you in the land the Lord your God is giving you for your own.
He will give you many children, and many young ones among your animals, and much food from the ground, in the land the Lord promised to your fathers to give you. He will give rain to your land at the right time. He will bring good to all the work you do. You will give to many nations.
But you will not use anything that belongs to them. If you listen to the Laws of the Lord your God which I tell you today and be careful to obey them, you will only be above and not below. Deut 15 is all about how the pre-christian should lend to others.
He cannot make his neighbor and his brother pay it because the Lord has said that all should be forgotten. I'm not in full agreement with what is reported, however I can see that him being wealthy is not anti-christian.
Especially if they have to use credible sources. You simply can't overlook that, pretending to be "objective" about that matter. Another source Trinity Org which focuses on investigating religious fraud revealed these findings: "For example, televangelists travel like rock stars. Many of these studies were prepared by Justin Osteen, brother of Houston mega-church pastor Joel Osteen.
A lawyer representing many of these religious leaders listed Benny Hinn, T. It was a small church in our community and they recently moved OUT of our community onto a service road. Its 3 times a s big and while they say its to help more people they abandoned the very people they were supposed to serve.
These mega churches are scary. There is a disconnect. I cant see how Christians defend it but they do I was raised christian, still consider myself one but I cant rock with the organized, mega, extravagant, church experience.
Where Jesus said something like "Do not make my Father's house a house of trade. Jakes is a hustle and a con. But I don't have a dog in this race because I'm not christian other than the fact that I have so many family members caught up in this mess connected to TD Jakes and it has straight up ruined their lives.
They don't even realize it. They walk around as shells of people but they're in control of a lot of money. Millions even I wish if they were going to believe in a god they could believe in one that wasn't so dependent on profit and power. I couldn't even make this stuff up. Most of them anyway. Poetx dropped jewels up there tho. Props to him. Might wanna retreat and think that through before you finish, lol. This the kinda stuff that reminds you why you stopped dealing with organized religion.
People not only collectively on some bs but vehemently defending it. This is amazing. But of course, they ignored his replies, per standard lol. I haven't read what poetx wrote. I countered the idea that christians are supposed to live in poverty. No one said the man had to live in a gutter and wear dirty rags but there are orders of magnitude between poverty and the level of excess and extravagance TD Jakes indulges in.
I don't recall saying he should live in poverty, but some modesty would be becoming. All the opulence isn't even in the spirit of biblical teachings.
You ask was Jesus poor. I ask did Jesus have golden sandals and sequined robes for himself and all his followers? If I'm not mistaken, he spoke once of not even having a place to lay his head. He was modest in his way of life and God blessed him. Paul told folks in the church to stop being all flashy. Surely that ain't just those people. He was telling them how to represent Christ. Of course, be presentable and not bummy, but it's the spirit and good works that are supposed to shine.
Not the accessories and amenities. God provides for the birds, will he not provide for you? Ain't never said nothing about "Demand ye a penthouse and the latest gadgets for thine children for thy service of delivering my word".
Were he operating in the spirit of God and his son, he would have simply asked for the price of travel if that , and a place to stay and allowed God to bless him with the rest.
I'm sure they wouldn't have done the man wrong. He supposed to be focused and the kingdom work and let all the rest be added unto him and whatnot. Where is his faith and trust in God to provide? That would actually be a decent testimony if he made moderate demands and the doors of heaven were opened to him, but where is God in this debacle? He can't be found. We live in a country where the average income of whites is so much greater than that of blacks, so in white churches a vow of poverty or living modestly is looked at as a sacrifice, because it is outside of the norm for that community.
Where as black folks have always known poverty intimately. Even if you're black middle class you have some family members that aren't to far removed from the projects. So modesty and poverty are not looked upon as noble or a sacrifice, more so a too familiar burden that only a few of us can seem to shake. Black parishioners want their pastors to represent wealth and prosperity as a sort of beacon that the impossible is possible "through Jesus.
Giving the pastor tithes for a private jet plane becomes a physical replacement for the "fruits of the lord" parishioners should receive for their worship but don't because they are locked out of the top or even middle tier rewards of capitalism.
Pastors become avatars for the hopes and dreams of the parishioners. It's all a distraction from the absence of the churches freedom doctrine in which black people powerfully made over our countries laws in a way that no other movement has since.
Can you worry about real change if you're trying to scape up money for greenrooms and ipods and jet planes? I wonder if MLK needed floral arrangements, 4 star hotels and all of that to visit a church and speak?
We know he wasn't staying at a fancy hotel lol. He slept at people's houses or at motels. The message was more important than the money. Since the Black church abandoned the freedom doctrine over 40 years ago, the prosperity movement grown exponentially to fill it's place. It makes sense when we live in a society where consumerism is so at the center of people's core identities and belief systems that capitalism becomes a new form of religion.
White folks have their own ways of doing the same thing but this is really disturbing to me because I see the fall out from misplaced faith and the idolatry of pastors and money among black people I know and love. First class flight? Eh Ok. Chartered LearJet? Nice Deluxe room at the Marriott? Nobody's saying Jakes should be staying at Motel 8 - just have some taste and perspective of the faith and messiah you claim to serve.
We're basically saying it is what it is and it's on him if he wants to live that way based on the draw he has built up. Simply put: We don't really care about TD Jakes, specifically. You do. The insincerity of this entire thread is that you and others don't really care if he or anyone else is the "best Christian" they can be, because you care nothing about Christians. This is obvious because not one reply is actually attacking the WORK done by any churches.
It's just attacking his wealth. You just use it as another reason that justifies why you aren't a fan of Christianity. And that's fine, but like I've been saying, just be honest about it.
I find it ironic that you criticize him for allegedly being wealth-driven, but all you want to focus on is wealth. Most pastors are NOT wealthy. Most pastors don't have private jets and 6 figure requirements for guest preaching. Talk to some people on the ground level. Visit with some of the ministries within the church. The homeless outreach ministries, the prison ministries, the marriage ministries, youth ministries, drug counseling. THEN have a discussion.
An objective, unbiased one. Instead of focusing all your "research" efforts on this one pastor's income, focus some research on some of the work being done behind the scenes. If you still feel the same way about "today's Christian" after that, then fine, but at least you will be more informed. Eddie Long should do things to young boys? TD Jakes isn't the only pastor with questionable practices. He's just the most visible. I don't go after him in attempt to take him down the same way I didn't go after Jamal Bryant for his affairs.
They aren't my pastor so what benefit is there. It's up to his congregation to decide what they are comfortable with, and either stay or walk away. Personally I don't follow him closely. I spent time with him once, he was a cool dude and I leave it at that. Every now and then I'll hear him drop a word on TV that resonates as he did with Oprah recently , I take it for what it is and keep moving. Why should I make it my mission to participate in the "takedown" of every pastor who has questionable motives and practices?
I don't understand the benefit. I would rather do more positive things with my time and focus on uplifting those that need it. Judgment is God's job. It's about supporting what you DO agree with instead of spending the most time tearing down what you don't. That's my point. If you can't stand Rihanna and Beyonce, promote some alternatives. I don't have to tear down Jakes, I can just name 5 other pastors that someone could turn to instead.
Personally, I don't think his wealth is a secret to anyone. They may not have known about the specifics regarding his fees, but you would be hard pressed to find someone who thought that he was living modestly.
I've only questioned the facts behind some of the questioning which still haven't been provided. Where are you getting this from? This is up to the church. If your church is considering having him visit, you can voice your opinion to the necessary people.
But I find it hard to believe that this is news to staff of the prominent churches in the country. Again where are you getting all of this from? Who says anything about submitting to the will of any man? As for the message part, are you now saying that pastors serve no purpose?
I'm sorry, I don't believe that. I never said that they are responsible for delivering ALL messages. Everyone should have their own relationship with God. But sometimes, it does help to hear things articulated a certain way and I firmly believe that God uses people to do this. Sometimes it's a pastor, sometimes it's a family member, sometimes it's a friend. The only thing that I've been pushing for is an objective conversation.
Anyone is free to have a problem with whatever they want to have a problem with. But have an objective conversation. Can't fux with a person on that level Marla exposed her troll dumb-assery in that "atheist tell me about your atheism" post. Obviously you caught some feelings because you're bringing up stuff I don't even remember. Yes the church has bills, yes employees have salaries, no to preaching being conducted as a business operating for profit.
I really don't think a lot of Christians know enough about Judaism in the 1st century to keep using that term. The Pharisees are the antecedents for today's Rabbis. The Pharisees weren't a monolithic group and many of Jesus's sayings line up with the teachings of rabbis who would have been his contemporaries. Question, what do you know of the Saducees? They were actually the uptight moralist elitist asshole of ancient Judea. The Pharisees were for the people. I also heard the admission price for the sermon on the mount was sky high!
Like Watch The Throne front row seats ticket prices. Of all the good christians in the world people feel the need to defend prosperity preachers who are an easy target?
You cant win that argument because deep down we all know lavish, prosperity preachers are a bad example when it comes to christianity. Some of the people making that argument couldn't care less about Christian principles. Just say you have a problem with wealthy Pastors, and that would be the honest truth. But it seems to have little to do with wanting Christians to be better Christians for the sake of Christianity. If that were the case, more time would be spend building up than tearing down.
Find and promote the good pastors instead of merely seeking to validate your disdain for today's Christians. If that doesn't apply to you, then let it fly. There's been plenty of "Christians suck! Even some of the people like, WTF? The post would have died around reply 20 if a response of "Yeah, he's just ONE preacher out of thousands struggling to do good work without getting paid for it, stop using him as an example".
But the from the very beginning the first counterpoint is, of course he should be megarich! Even providing bible scripture to support it, lol.
I just didn't see this post going down that route at all. Which trust me, made it awesome, lol. My horse in the battle was how we as 'muricans love to apply the concepts of capitalism to everything in our lives That's unfortunate, but my personal position from the beginning has been clear.
I can't speak for anyone else. I don't believe that. Tell me where I said that. One of my first responses was that "I'm not saying what he makes is right or wrong". My point from the beginning has been that I don't concern myself with it because that's not my focus. My focus is the word and fellowship, and I let God deal with that and everything else. I have a strong enough spirit of discernment that allows me to determine whether or not the word being delivered by a preacher is authentic.
THAT's my focus, personally. There's this impression that Christians are dumping their life savings on the alter in order to make pastors rich, and are therefore being "pimped". It's massively insulting. That's a fair concern, and I have never objected to that being raised. As a matter of fact, I've said over an over again that concern is fair. But my main objective has been to make the discussion an objective one. Call me commie Reg, but I just can't imagine any non-for profit head of an organization making that much obscene guap.
Not saying homie can't take vacay, splurge periodically on Johnny Walker blue, or get a hotel upgrade. But I was like, 'WTF?! Why though? When is Christianity a monolith? But here is a breakdown of how they make so much money. This is not unusual for people in a profession such as theirs, to be paid this. However, high profile pastors have additional income that come from sources separate from their church. Often times these ministries will also pay these guys a salary. But it gets added on top of it.
Speaking Gigs — Then also, for someone like Noel Jones his major money is made in speaking gigs. Apart from preaching on Sundays, Noel Jones easily preaches at 4 places each week. Did you get that? Off guest preaching alone. If Noel Jones has 3 books in the marketplace and each sells 20, a year. Multiply that by 3, because each book sold 20, copies in a year.
Other Business Ventures — Then, on top of all that, he may be involved in numerous business ventures. These ventures may come from business people he knows in his church or in his city. So he joined them, that now becomes another source of income for him. For example, I know a preacher who owned a lot of homes that he rented out to people, this was his business that brought him money every month, apart from his church salary. Christians are now more observant and outspoken regarding Church Money, and sites like PimpPreacher.
Listed below are actual comments from Pastors who support Jakes and his lifestyle. Jakes, but nowhere near enough. Do people have issues or complain when rock stars get the amount of money they earn? I see how many people these ministers help through the ministry they have been entrusted with.
Those that are spreading the Good News, advancing the Kingdom who work tirelessly should be rewarded more than any worldly person. This is from pimppreacher. Jakes and other ministers of the word do receive large honorariums to speak, as do entertainers, celebrities and pro athletes. My question: Why would a church pastor who receives his own honorariums, even from a television reality show, choose to promote a negative article from this website?
Jakes honors God, this article does not! Prosperity is a part of our covenant thru Jesus Christ. When the woman poured the expensive oil on Jesus ,Judas protested the very same way.
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